Dear Cis Gay Men, Here's Why Women in MM Romance Don't Listen to You

I used to call many gay men my friends—in college, post college for a few years. And I didn't think of them as my 'gay friends'; they were my friends.

Until I really started to notice (or rather acknowledge) that their favorite insults to each other all revolved around women: You bitch. You slut. Pussy. You cunt. On particularly charming moments, You ugly bleeding cunt. Sometimes it was simply 'girl', but it was rather frustrating to hear them use these words as insults against each other between telling me my clothes look awful or grabbing my friends' ass, and when we complained about it, telling us 'it's okay because I'm gay'.

And if your immediate response to the above is 'not all gay men' please, respectfully, shut up.

Let's go way way back to the beginning of MM fiction. Which is an offshoot of/strongly tied to BL (boys' love), yaoi, and slash (and before anyone tries to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, this is literally one of my degrees, and I haven't stopped studying it since I finished college), which has always been women-dominated (but not straight women dominated – the majority from what I've seen/read are queer).

And I wish I had screencaps of some of this stuff, but it's been a long time. Longer still for those who have been around twice or thrice as long as me, because I've only been a reader since high school (class of 1999, god do I hate that fucking song) and a writer since…I dunno, while I was in college (class of 2003).

But if I had screencaps, I could show you all the times gay men called us garbage. Called us stupid fucking cunts just using them for our own pleasure (while never speaking up when other men were sexist assholes treating women like objects, but we'll get to that). Laughing at us. Calling us sad, pathetic faghags. Calling us fat and ugly and desperate. Mocking us at every turn. Telling us they'd never read our garbage, and later that they'd never buy it, once we started moving from fanfiction and free original stuff to publishing.

Like, there are many, many reasons all those old writing groups, and later LJs, were locked down tight. Most of it was that a lot of us would lose our jobs or get in trouble with family if they saw what we read and wrote. But there was also the vitriol and harassment we caught from men who decided we weren't allowed to do what we did, even though they have no problem with straight men reading and watching and admiring magazines, pornos, and images of women. Even though plenty of them read the work they could find, sometimes on the sly, sometimes just so they could tell us why we suck. Some of them were even decent and just part of the crowd, but they were by far the minority.

For instance, a few years ago I got into an unpleasant discussion with a gay man, an author. It got ugly. I was upset, my poor then-girlfriend and sister were trying to comfort me. I got an email from an author who told me they weren't surprised by the awful things this man was saying, I should see what he (and other well-known gay men in MM) said about so many women behind closed doors where they thought they were among friends. And this author begged me to keep what they'd said confident, because if it got out, those men would know who had told and they were deathly afraid what those men might do in retaliation.

And that's not the first such email I've gotten, up to and including the fear.

There's a well-known bully in this community who purposely called me straight solely for the purpose of hurting me, to "make a point". But mostly to hurt me, because when I SAID it hurt and I'd just wanted to enjoy a nice dinner out with me wife, he made fun of me. And never once apologized, the way he apologized to a man he accidentally misgendered. This one I do have screen-caps for.









The fact that this was liked by even a few people is disgusting. Plenty of people wouldn't tolerate it when he mistreated another man, but he's allowed to hurt me for no reason (or at least, a reason I still don't understand; he was pissed at me for claiming I speak for trans people, even though I never have).

The point is, whatever I did or didn't do, I didn't deserve to be: a) misidentified and b) mocked for my pain. But how many of his 2000+ followers came down on him for something that entire community wars have been started over?

Three that I saw before I finally gave my phone to my wife so I'd stop looking at twitter and getting increasingly upset. Mostly people just laughed and agreed with him. A few people messaged or emailed me with words of comfort. The rest did nothing at all.

I can promise you that if Julio had been a woman rather than a man engaging in this behavior, and I'd been a queer man, Julio would have been DESTROYED. How do I know? Because Kindle Alexander was rightfully lambasted for her abhorrent behavior recently. Kindle said they identified as 'a gay man' but with their friends constantly joked and made light of transmen and all that they go through. This carried on for days, and honestly people are still feeling and recovering from the fallout (especially trans people, who are by their own words really fucking tired of this shit) But Julio gets away with similar all the time. Men get away with atrocious behavior ALL THE TIME in this genre, because they're men, and gay men, and I guess that means they're too high up on their pedestals to be touched.

That is my point. Even in a genre that is woman dominated, that was built by woman and will always be mostly for women, men show up to treat us like garbage. To tell us that we're wrong, that we're not doing it "right", even though right is pretty damn subjective when it comes to storytelling (not subjective across the board, obvs, writing stories about say, Jewish people falling in love with Nazis, or slaves falling in love with plantation owners, is never going to be okay, there are some lines).

Even today I saw a post written by a man complaining that women don't listen to him.

"I've been stunned by the number of women who don’t seem to want to listen to gay men. I find that stunning because we're the topic. We're what you’re so interested in."

First off, just because they're not listening to you or other gay men in your immediate vicinity doesn't mean they aren't listening to gay men. Or bisexual men. Or trans men, etc. There are plenty of men in my life I can talk to when I need their input. I don't need a bunch of strangers I don't know, and who don't even write what I write (in that, I write high fantasy, which is completely different from contemporary, which is what this particular author writes to my knowledge) telling me how to do a job I have been doing well for over a decade.

Next, too many gay men show up acting like their way is the only way. That if we don't write our stories, our characters, the way gay men tell us we should, we are doing it wrong. Never mind there is no single one way, or even ten ways, to be a gay man. Just as there's no single way to be lesbian, bisexual, asexual, etc. So of course that "advice" gets ignored. We're not stupid. You are not the Voice of All Gay Men. We are not obligated to listen to every single gay man who shows up to the genre acting like a gift from heaven.

Three, this genre has always been dominated by women. It's largely written by women, for women, and increasingly by a broader spectrum of queer people for queer people. So gay men are hardly the only voice that needs to be heard, and frankly, it's exhausting that after all this time, it's still gay cis white men that are the voice and the face of the queer community and the rest of us are just on the fringes being told we're doing everything wrong (and this is such an oversimplification of one element of a huge problem, because let's be real, it's queer POC who are most shit on by the community).

Four, women are damned tired of men policing our sexuality. Slash, yaoi, BL, and MM are for women to enjoy stories that are predominantly romantic and/or erotic in nature. There is a long, long list of reasons they focus on guys fucking other guys, too many to get into in this post. Are there problems with it? Yes, yes, yes. Objectification is certainly one of them. Disrespecting the gay community is another. Yaoi alone has a host of issues. I have ranted about these and other problems at various times and places. But it is still a place where women can enjoy sex and romance without men telling them they're wrong or crazy or stupid or should be ashamed.

Except that still happens time and time again.

And exactly as happened to me today, when women try to point all these problems out, be it in response to articles, blogposts, or whatever, we get at least one of three responses:

1.     I'm sorry you feel that way.
2.     You're just not reading what I said correctly.
3.     Not all (gay) men

So in summary, a lot of women ignore what gay men have to say about how we should write our books because for a long damn time, gay men told us our books were garbage and we were ugly, desperate, pathetic fatties who should stop ruining gay fiction with our stories.

A lot of women ignore what gay men have to say because we're not writing about gay men. I'm writing an asexual man, a bisexual man, and a pansexual dragon in a high fantasy world with a culture vastly different from ours. Your input isn't relevant.

A lot of women ignore what gay men have to say because gay men are sexist, entitled, and ignore us when we try to explain these things. Because so many gay men still say awful things about us when they think no one is listening. Because we're still afraid to name names because of what might happen to us. Because even the men who are pretty decent still say NOTHING when their fellows act like jerks, which means they can't be wholly trusted either. Because gay men are still men, and we're women, and when men get angry at women, rarely does that end well for us.


I, and countless other women, will treat you like peers when you treat us like human beings.

Comments

  1. THANK YOU for articulating this so clearly! I've had problems in the past as well but wasn't sure how to word them. Thankfully, most of my friends and friendly acquaintances either don't know my reading habits, share my reading habits, aren't assholes, are women, are queer/genderqueer, or some combination of those things. And I don't actually write, so I don't get the brunt of it. You are a wonderful, articulate author with amazing characters and more than excellent word-building, and I'm so glad that you have chosen to share them with us all. :)

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  2. Dear Megan,

    I wanted to thank you for writing this.

    I have been a follower of your works since I was in high school and am grateful for all that Less Than Three Press has exposed me to: different stories, characters, writing styles, subjects, characters, content, and more. Articles like this open my eyes even wider to a variety of social issues that I would normally have been ignorant of, and I cannot thank you enough for that either. You have influenced my life in a number of ways, from wanting to improve my own writing and storytelling skills, to discovering parts of myself that without people like you, I likely would have been unaware of due to my offline environment.

    I am so sorry that you and other writers face so much backlash from those who should be supporting you, from those whom you should be able to call peers. It is completely unfair and is downright wrong in many aspects to you and the entire community.

    I hope you and others continue to have the courage and fortitude to keep writing, publishing, sharing, creating, and speaking out about these issues. I hope that articles like this and other forms of dialogue help those who have hurt you (and everyone else) realize their mistakes and learn from them. I hope they make sincere efforts to change and make amends. I hope that eventually, we can get to a point where instances like this are rare anomalies, not common behavior.

    In the meantime, I hope the pain of what you have gone through fades away sooner than later, and people take your message to heart.

    Thank you again for all that you do.

    Lupin

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    1. How does saying someone is a pussy (which I don't condone, and I'm a gay man *shocker*) equate to calling someone/something gay in a negative connotation? You're taking an entire identity and turning it into a slur. I'm sure you've called plenty of people dicks and no guy, gay or straight, batted an eye.


      Sooo ironic. :/

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    2. "Gay man stereotype" 🤔 Um. Wow.

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    3. Discard then the pussy and slut and insert "you re such a girl " in a negative way. Is that ok to do?

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    4. @SarSar there are stereotypes i believe in everyone. How we behave though shows how we are different. Maybe it is wrong of me to use it since it seems to be an issue with you. I do apologise for that.

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    5. @artemicia, no it's not ok to do, and I've also never heard it done unless it's coming from a straight guy attacking a gay guy, which again, is not good in any sense of the word. I think that also might only be a middle school diss? "You're such a girllll" is nothing any adult should say.

      And ALSO, I didn't even read that stereotype part which really just goes to show where you're working from. To think that a stereotype for gay guys is misogynistic and mean is really off base. Maybe that we like brunch and make-over montages, but misogynistic and mean? Come on.

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    6. About the girl part I have heard adults say it. Nevertheless, the stereotype. It's an outdated stereotype i admit from where i come from about gay men being misogynistic. Not mean. Mean is just they guy which Derr told him what he said hurt and he continue to make fun and dismiss what she was saying.
      Anyways , I apologise again and know better that to use it.

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  4. Living in a country - Brazil - where the Julio-like would be the trashed on, as homophobia is a cultural reference, it makes me sad that people can prove everwhere to be blind of their blessing, assuming them to be rights instead.
    On another note, at my country, if you wish to formalize a polyamours relationship, all you need is to register it on a oficial register, the worst you get is to be news because of it, but it is legal and binding...(sorry for my bad english, I like to read, not write...)

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  5. I had to disassociate myself from that commenter a long time ago. I'm sorry he treated you so shabbily.

    I noticed when I was coming out that there were no polite terms for women who enjoyed the company of gay men, save possibly for lady in waiting. But fruit fly? Fag hag? Those are rude and disrespectful to gay men and their women friends. Jeez.

    But lashing out at gay/bi/trans male readers and threatening to take complaints about appropriation seriously only when they treat you as human does disservice to us all. Appropriation is real, full stop. So is sexism. They are separate issues and deserve to be taken seriously. Holding one hostage contingent on the other undercuts the validity of your argument.

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    2. I never said I don't take those issues seriously. I did in fact say there are very real problems *that I have spoken out about more than once*

      Quote from post: Are there problems with it? Yes, yes, yes. Objectification is certainly one of them. Disrespecting the gay community is another. Yaoi alone has a host of issues. I have ranted about these and other problems at various times and places.


      Also, I didn't lash out at bi or trans men. In fact it explicitly says in the title 'gay cis men' I clearly mentioned how often every but gay men are ignored and overlooked.

      Quote from post: So gay men are hardly the only voice that needs to be heard, and frankly, it's exhausting that after all this time, it's still gay cis white men that are the voice and the face of the queer community and the rest of us are just on the fringes being told we're doing everything wrong (and this is such an oversimplification of one element of a huge problem, because let's be real, it's queer POC who are most shit on by the community).

      My post explains why we don't listen to all of their opinions and advice on writing (and reading). Nowhere, anywhere, did I say "I refuse to listen to your problems"

      quote from post: To tell us that we're wrong, that we're not doing it "right", even though right is pretty damn subjective when it comes to storytelling


      Quote from post: here are plenty of men in my life I can talk to when I need their input. I don't need a bunch of strangers I don't know, and who don't even write what I write...telling me how to do a job I have been doing well for over a decade.

      Quote from post: Next, too many gay men show up acting like their way is the only way. That if we don't write our stories, our characters, the way gay men tell us we should, we are doing it wrong.

      Quote from post: A lot of women ignore what gay men have to say because we're not writing about gay men. I'm writing an asexual man, a bisexual man, and a pansexual dragon in a high fantasy world with a culture vastly different from ours. Your input isn't relevant.

      quote from post: So in summary, a lot of women ignore what gay men have to say about how we should write our books because for a long damn time, gay men told us our books were garbage and we were ugly, desperate, pathetic fatties who should stop ruining gay fiction with our stories.

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  6. I love m/m romance and paranormal. After reading this though, as a reader I am glad to say that I have never heard of you and I have never read any of your books... And I never will... With all that is going on with the world, with the fighting and the death of so many I am disgusted by your actions... With all the hate going on in this world, at this time, you decide to bring your hate to so many that are being beaten and killed for being gay... I will be glad to let my friends who love reading m/m know exactly how you feel... You should be ashamed of your words when at a time people should band together in this difficult time... Now I am only a reader and not an author, but there will be many out there who feel the same way I do...

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    1. So pointing out the inherent problems with cis gay male attitudes towards women is on par with the issues gay men face in Chechnya? Because that's what you're equating this to. I guess we should all just stick our heads in the sand for the problematic attitudes that gay men OFTEN have toward women (to be clear -- not ALL gay men, but it is a systematic issue that permeates both gay romance and real life).

      You are more than welcome to read who and what you want, to be clear. You being a reader doesn't make you any less a part of this community. But you should be aware that no community is perfect, and simply because gay men still face persecution for who they love doesn't make them perfect and immune to criticisms regarding their behavior. It also fixes nothing.

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    2. I don't understand where all this women/gay guy war mongering is coming from. I live in Los Angeles, and am surrounded by gay guys and women alike, everyone getting along. Clearly, some people have crossed you or upset you, but to think that gay men *often* have problematic attitudes is pretty problematic in and of itself.

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    3. Everyone has their own experiences, to be fair. I've run into a lot of great gay guys and a lot of shitty ones. It's awesome you're surrounded by great people, and I like to think the people I surround myself with are pretty awesome too. That doesn't mean there aren't shitty attitudes out there, and that they're not prevalent. Like I mentioned to a poster below, if you do a quick search re: the way gay men treat women, you'll run into a lot more stories like the ones Megan describes here.

      (And no warmongering. The idea here is to point out there's an issue, so it can be fixed. Ignoring it won't help.)

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  7. As a CIS gay male of color who is well over 21, I find your arguments facile and repleat with anger. I also find it disappointing that you think it was yourself and other women who invented this genre and are the only ones who have the right to have an opinion about it. If you did indeed finish college after the turn of the millennium, I can only hope you look beyond your very narrow world view and seek out a complete history of what you're speaking on. The issue you're having seems to be a personal conflict with one gay man and you're using that to justify belittling and name calling all gay men. If as you say your books are by a woman and meant ONLY for women, you owe it to all of your readers to say so in a forward of all of your books.
    You should be aware however, it makes you appear to be in it only for the money and exploitative and dismissive of the very men you're writing about. As a reviewer on several blogs, I am free now to skip your titles since my opinion, by your own words, DOES NOT COUNT. I will also encourage my fellow reviewers to skip your books as well. You obviously only want and need one opinion, your own.
    You embarked on a career involving gay men. You were not forced to. Clearly you hold gay men like me in contempt. You walked into our world not the other way around. We get to talk about one another in ANY fashion we choose. You don't get to tell us how we should do it. I don't talk to women the way I talk to other gay men. The same is true of many minority populations. They have a language they use with one another and a different one when addressing the world at large. If you don;t understand that, you must not have many friends of color.
    The truth is, I have many female author friends who write M/M fiction. Not one of them has EVER been as disingenuous as you. Not one one of them has ever been as clearly mercenary in their exploitation of gay men. You have done yourself a huge disservice and told your readers both male and female, unless and until they agree with you and you only, they are not welcome nor are their opinions valid. that just may come back to bite your butt good and hard.

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    1. Romance, including queer romance, has primarily, historically been a genre for and by women. Gay romance is part of that umbrella. Gay literature can and should be attributed to men, and there is some bleed over.

      Regarding your idea that the behaviors described in Megan's post are ONE gay man? To be honest, it makes me wonder if you read the post. The misogynistic treatment of women by cis gay men is a well-documented issue across the internet (google anything to do with gay men's treatment of women and you'll have a plethora of articles to choose from). On a personal note, I can attest that Megan's experiences happened with MANY gay men, not simply ONE. (My credentials for that: she's my wife.)

      I can't change how you take this post. If you choose to believe that Megan is only in this genre for the money, that she actually hates gay men (and thereby, you), that's your choice. Your choice as well to not read or review her books and to tell others to skip it.

      The point of this post is not 'why Megan hates gay men'; the point of this post was 'gay men often have problematic opinions'. The point here is that gay men's opinions, particularly those who have not looked at their own behavior and reflect upon the ideas and biases that society ingrains, are harmful. Does your opinion count? Absolutely. You no doubt have experiences and ideas that are unique and would be useful/helpful in discussions with authors and to help improve books. But would they be useful in a high fantasy setting that treats men and women as equals, doesn't rely on gender stereotypes, and focuses heavily on politics? And what would happen if your opinion counter-indicated the opinion of another cis gay man's? Not all opinions are useful or helpful, not all opinions are relevant.

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    2. "The same is true of many minority populations. They have a language they use with one another and a different one when addressing the world at large. If you don;t understand that, you must not have many friends of color. "

      You're absolutely right, but generally those languages are personal to that minority. For example the "n word" is co-opted by the black community as a means of reclaiming a term that was used as a weapon against them for decades.

      Pussy, cunt, bitch, girly can never be adopted by gay men in the same way. In a way that isn't an insult to another uninvolved group... Those terms are feminine. They are derogatory synonyms for female... not homosexual. Are they used as weapons against gay men to play upon negative stereotypes? Yes, absolutely! But our gender is the slur. When you call someone a pussy the root of the insult is "you're female and that is a negative/repulsive thing". Sexism (not homophobia) is inherent in those terms just as racism is inherent in the "n-word". You aren't the target of those words. Females are. It doesn't matter who you're saying them to. So no Mike, in the case of these particular words you absolutely don't get to talk to one in "ANY fashion" you choose without reprisal.

      If used in a non-derogatory manner fine... Like I said gay men have been victimized by those terms too and that at least qualifies as adopting and reclaiming the term within a minority lexicon in my book. But far too often the usage is still derogatory (ex: "you're such a whiny bitch") and that by no means fits the same bill. When used that way it is still sexist. The implication "female = bad" is still there. An entire group is still being insulted and demeaned by your use of the words whether you intend to do so or not.

      So yes. Women absolutely do have the right to complain when you speak that way. Not to mention the fact that as you seem to claim this lexical phenomenon among the male gay community is not fully benign. There are plenty among the community who are true sexists. Men who feel superior to women and view them with open and unabashed contempt. Men who know full well the implications of the terms being bandied about and subscribe fully to that anti-female message.

      I'm sure this felt like an attack, so in part I understand your reaction... but just because you are a minority doesn't make you blameless paragons. Doesn't make you incapable of wrongs against other genders, races, or orientations. Doesn't exempt you from being called out for biases. I don't agree with all of Megan's point's, but in this regard at least I don't feel like her complaints were far off base.

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    3. * "don't get to talk to one" in paragraph 3 above should be "don't get to talk to one another"

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  8. I agree with what you've written, and I don't think I could add more to it. But I think you're very right about the misogyny that can be found, and that much of the time these individuals will use the fact that they're part of a minority group to avoid addressing certain social issues that exist within their community (misogyny, sexism, racism, etc.).

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  9. Wow - "gay men are sexist, entitled, and ignore us..." Try starting that sentence using a different minority group. Here, I'll help you out. How about "Black women are..." or "Asian men are..." Do you even realize how you sound???

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    1. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD1JmB6afTAhUl94MKHY49C0sQFggjMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbroadly.vice.com%2Fen_us%2Farticle%2Fthe-gay-men-who-hate-women&usg=AFQjCNGe2dMviSikpfWhyEf5y05GQG337g&sig2=QS9X8ENnTIpMubsymmF5eQ&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE

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      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD1JmB6afTAhUl94MKHY49C0sQFggwMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.advocate.com%2Fwomen%2F2016%2F12%2F19%2Fyes-you-can-be-sexist-even-if-youre-gay-man&usg=AFQjCNEEeUdAny2GdshyohI4GFJsvX4Cow&sig2=VaDFhQT8U8ILgL27M_EEnQ&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD1JmB6afTAhUl94MKHY49C0sQFgg2MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2Fsamuel-chiron%2Fwhy-do-gay-men-perpetuate_b_8630350.html&usg=AFQjCNHyeJvYYJ-GiOPWfAZ41e1MY39GKQ&sig2=FsyWtAd28FwySpI3ig3kwA&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD1JmB6afTAhUl94MKHY49C0sQFgg9MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmen%2Fthinking-man%2Fthe-gay-community-needs-to-deal-with-its-misogyny-problem%2F&usg=AFQjCNEvR8S3KFe2A_8lL7ftYTVQL24QZw&sig2=6LNsSOI5Dap3MqcxbRS8yA&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD1JmB6afTAhUl94MKHY49C0sQFghEMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newnownext.com%2Fcasual-misogyny%2F03%2F2017%2F&usg=AFQjCNHMkAiAa8siZwEUwFmdtU2MEOPoeg&sig2=69tewLZgQNjspVrjbtxMNg&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD1JmB6afTAhUl94MKHY49C0sQFghKMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthetab.com%2F2016%2F04%2F15%2Fjust-youre-gay-doesnt-mean-can-sexist-86443&usg=AFQjCNFzdakg_If5YE0osPUeS4xt1H3zAg&sig2=lA-5thJHk9bwZ4i3UVeZkg&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE

      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiD1JmB6afTAhUl94MKHY49C0sQFghWMAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.killyourdarlings.com.au%2F2016%2F03%2Fspace-invaders-why-white-cis-gay-men-should-check-their-privilege%2F&usg=AFQjCNEmFKxombE7kYkGAJgDUkt-yrgYFQ&sig2=nbeWFqPfmGYZn2yDJm-IBQ&bvm=bv.152479541,d.eWE

      I think that's enough to get you started. Because yes, I know exactly how I sound. I sound like a woman who is tired of men being sexist, while screaming at me that I'm wrong for calling them sexist.

      Delete

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